Lee: Speaking of white women, that's a perfect segue. Willis: It does hurt. Because as a Black trans woman, you telling me you want to abolish the police or you telling me you want to abolish prisons, that you want to defund the police doesn't necessarily put me completely at ease because I know that I could still be and am likely to be harmed by men in our communities, particularly Black cishet men. You say Marsha P. Johnson, and people who don't know, she was so about it, right, and so about the work. Lee: How do you move through these movement spaces that, you know, the bounds of white supremacy are still there? 'Cause it's like you're only cherished if you're dead, or you're only cherished if you can be in the spotlight and in some ways serve this desire of a cis person for you to be a spectacle, right, so they can add another layer of distance to you. We have an issue particularly in media where we often get to be either victims, of course, and not alive, or we're a superstar or celebrity. I think when you're close to people it does hurt in a particular way. She was at … "I was no one, nobody, from Nowheresville until I became a drag queen. I really appreciate it. Particularly as a Black trans woman, I'm dealing with the dual history of trans women not being seen as women enough but also Black women. Mostly white cisgender gay men, but also cisgender lesbians as well. Course Hero is not sponsored or endorsed by any college or university. Within the past week, 22-year-old Mercy Mac was killed in Dallas and Brayla Stone was found dead in Arkansas. On every level, Black cis folks are not doing enough to show up in new and expansive ways around gender and it's a problem. She was an activist, a sex worker, a drag performer, and even a model for Andy Warhol. Lee: I want to ask you though. For me, I found joy in having a chance to connect with the people closest to me in new ways, in deeper ways, reminding myself to take a walk not only for exercise but for the fresh air. Micah Bazant created this poster of Marsha P. Johnson in June 2014 “to challenge corporate, whitewashed gay pride and to celebrate Marsha, one of the mothers of the trans and queer liberation movement.” Marsha: The way I winded up being at Stonewall that night, I was having a party uptown. Thank you for having me. Lee: I think people have a pretty decent grasp of lesbian, gay, bi. Willis: No, I think that we have to find pockets of joy. We have to be having a holistic conversation on violence that not only talks about state violence but it also talks about the violence in our own homes, in our communities. So you can't really say that womanhood is based in the ability to procreate as a woman. (LAUGH) I almost don't have time to tweet on some days 'cause I'm so busy. Marsha P Johnson greets us at the docks where Christopher Street meets the Hudson River. Turns out we're not there. Also this year, we are going to name the first State park after an LGBTQ person and we are going to name it after Marsha P. Johnson - an icon of the community. Black trans women continue to face disproportionate levels of violence. Like, does one feed the other, especially when it comes to Black trans lives? We have been fighting to be respected, fighting to live for centuries. Marsha P. Johnson, the pioneering trans activist and Stonewall icon, has been honoured on the last day of Pride Month with a Google Doodle. Protest Leader: Black trans power matters. Born in 1945 in New Jersey, Marsha P. Johnson (also known as Marsha “Pay It No Mind” Johnson), was an outspoken African. Johnson was a founding member of the Gay Liberation Front and co-founded the radical activist group Street Transvestite Action Revolutionaries, alongside close friend Sylvia Rivera. CONTACT US. IE 11 is not supported. I also think about our institutions. How are you gonna support transforming our families, having those hard conversations with our elders? In the same speech, Cuomo also announced he would be renaming East River State Park in Williamsburg after LGBTQ icon Marsha P. Johnson, who was among the first to actively resist on the first night of the 1969 Stonewall Riots and remained involved in the political organizing that followed. It's not entirely different from how women and girls of all experiences face not being seen as competent, intelligent, brilliant, and capability of leadership. And then our families, right? Raquel Willis – who led a chant for 15,000 people at June’s Black Trans Lives Matter rally in New York – has paid tribute to Black trans elders Marsha P Johnson, … I think the first thing people need to do is really sit down and analyze themselves, answer what their insecurities are around anything, you know, but particularly around gender. And the circumstances around his case admittedly are very murky. And sometimes it seems obviously clear that this person was killed because they were trans. For an optimal experience visit our site on another browser. I never do it seriously” Marsha P. Johnson said this in an interview on Pay it … You know, I thought that we were at a point where we were past a lot of his misgivings or misconceptions about transness. Or is it your gender identity first? Johnson also co-founded STAR, one of … Brayla was just 17. [...] Johnson never self-identified with the term transgender, but the term was also not in broad use while Johnson was alive. And that's part of why I have an issue with the way that we have framed violence as simply something that happens from the state, something that happens from police officers who are white that overwhelmingly happens to cisgender heterosexual men. Lee: Raquel, thank you so much for joining me. Marsha P. Johnson, transgender activist and urban legend, was never one to mince words. Lee: That was Raquel Willis, a Black trans activist and director of communications for the Ms. Foundation. Hope y'all enjoy the long holiday weekend. The first sentence describes Johnson as a drag queen and the article goes on to say Johnson variably identified herself as gay, as a transvestite, and as a queen (referring to drag queen). And when you think about people like J.K. Rowling, and I want to read this quote, she said, quote, "If sex isn't real, the lived reality of women globally is erased." I mean, I wish I could say yes, but Black cis folks are not doing enough. But then the fact that she had the energy to use her platform to demonize trans people, demonize a more marginalized group of women is problematic to me, but it's also emblematic of white womanhood. Into America is produced by Isabel Angel, Allison Bailey, Aaron Dalton, Max Jacobs, Barbara Raab, Claire Tighe, Aisha Turner, and Preeti Varathan. Raquel Willis: There's this idea that because we are having an openly different gender experience, that we deserve the abuse that we may receive. Willis: I think it's all of the above. Lee: We're in this moment here where there is so much energy around the Black Lives Matter movement. But the one thing I want you to think about tonight is we have new challenges that we must recognize. And from those earliest days, people had concerns about Black folks, brown folks, people who are incarcerated, and of course trans people because we were seen as not in line with some of the assimilationist goals of many of those early movement figures. Willis: Right. Find answers and explanations to over 1.2 million textbook exercises. The full episode transcript for Into Black Trans Liberation. Speaking of white women, (LAUGH) and as we know that white women played a role in white supremacy and have always played a reinforcing role in that and also a role in the patriarchy, right? We know that homophobia and transphobia knows no bounds. We lose a lot of nuance there. Marsha P. Johnson in Greenwich Village in 1988. I don't relish in these ideas of being the first, or being a token, or being an only. So if we're gonna say we're getting rid of prisons, we're defunding the police, which I support, we have to be just as much or maybe more invested in building up the consciousness of our people to be able to actually hold those people who commit harm and abuse accountable in the ways that we need them to be held accountable. Lee: By the time Marsha died in 1992, people rarely talked about her role in the movement. Do you disentangle your identity like that? Willis: I absolutely do think that there is a confluence and overlap of LGBTQ+ liberation and Black liberation. And it was an impressive sight. She was a prominent figure in the Stonewall uprising of 1969. But I will say I don't think that this is just a moment for Black trans people. Marsha went by “BLACK Marsha” before settling on Marsha P. Johnson. [10] Huey Newton (2009). It feels like a different time. However, when the policemen began inappropriately handling gay patrons. And that's just not okay. We will continue to fight racism on Grindr, both through dialogue with our community and a zero-tolerance policy for racism and hate speech … You can't say that it's about having a particular set of chromosomes. We … Is there a confluence there? Like, we all carry insecurities about our gender, about who we are and who we're supposed to be in the world. You know, we need the community organizers, and activists, and all those types of stories as well, and we don't often get that. Marsha P. Johnson, a black trans woman who passed away in 1992, was an LGBTQ civil rights activist and prominent figure in the Stonewall Uprising. Willis: I think a lot of it is proximity. Lee: I'm Trymaine Lee, and this is Into America. And it's not just Black trans women. Randy Wicker. But there's still a lot of work to be done. and Marsha P. Johnson hold valuable lessons on revolt, survival, street-level self-organization, the failure of leftism and feminism, and the interruption of the gender order. MSNBC Live with Kendis Gibson and Lindsey Reiser. I've also been planting and reminding myself through gardening indoors, I guess, that regardless of what happens, growth is still possible. And the idea of womanhood, is it worth having to explain to people what it means to live in this identity? And I think that we have to be able to hold that. I actually think we're more powerful when we have numbers. Willis: I definitely think that names like Marsha P. Johnson were forgotten intentionally. When you hear J.K. Rowling saying that, what's your response to that? Johnson … Police are treating her death as a homicide. I think about just two days after George was murdered, Tony McDade was murdered in Tallahassee, Florida, a Black transgender man. I would love for there to be a massive mobilization of allies of Black folks. And in these moments where we see people rising up, and we see coalition building, and we see people coming together in the name of equality, do you believe in this moment that there is a true chance that we'll step closer to the equality that folks claim (LAUGH) they believe in? I think about our media outlets and how often we don't have spaces like this, Trymaine, where a Black trans woman can come on and be in dialogue with a Black cis man about the state of the world. Willis: I think class affects all of it. Willis: Well, you know what is interesting is we've gotta get out of this space of thinking that transgender people are having some kind of magically different gender experience. I got a chance to talk with Raquel Willis, a Black transgender activist and the director of communications for the Ms. Foundation, a nonprofit fighting for women's rights. There are plenty of cis women who don't check off a lot of criterias that are considered womanhood. Lee: Marsha P. Johnson was one of those women. [6] Interviews of Marsha and Sylvia (2017), in David France [director] “The Death and Life of Marsha P. Johnson.” [7] Marsha P. Johnson (2019). "Read Stamped from the Beginning," right? There's still a lot of behind-the-scenes educating that has to happen for cis people who don't understand transness or gender nonconformity. Willis: Of course. I will say this was a joy. Lee: I want to ask you though. We’re gathered here tonight, to give tribute to an unsung hero, a queen of color and someone who helped pioneer one of the. And so cis women are also harmed by the patriarchy, and cis women are also harmed by men in our communities. Willis: I don't know. You can't say that it's about having a particular set of body, you know, thinking of the many women I know who have had hysterectomies, right? And that's something other LGBTQ+ folks, particularly white ones, need to understand. Pay it no mind. What is it, do you think? I think about the Stonewall riots, and there were important Black trans folks who were on the front lines during that queer militant uprising back in 1969 against the New York Police Department. Marsha P. Johnson: The way I winded up being at Stonewall that night, I was having a party uptown. I don't think any of us have the luxury of focusing on one group or the other. But do we have a good enough holistic nuance view of that violence? "We will not go away with our issues of sexuality. And yet we have to contend with the fact that even if there was a clear story, which there rarely is for any victim, particularly if you're Black, he would not have gotten any more attention from most people because people have a bias against trans folks. Learn more about characters, symbols, and themes in all your favorite books with Course Hero's We don't really talk about how we have our own conceptions of which victims are worthy of our empathy. They were pushed out of the fight for suffrage in this country. And I think that we do a disservice by allowing folks who lead Black liberation movements to envision liberation as contingent on one identity or one experience. But when people are close to you and they're side, maybe they're family or people that you really respect and they don't get it, does that sting a little bit? There's this idea that because we are openly gender nonconforming or having an openly different gender experience that we deserve the abuse that we may receive, and that's just not okay. Willis: I don't think so. Trymaine Lee: Last month, in the middle of Pride, thousands of people gathered in Brooklyn, New York for a rally for Black trans lives. Lee: This is from a 1989 interview with journalist Eric Marcus. Lee: And I don't want to necessarily use the word hurt. "Don't you got money to make?". But when it comes to this kind of allyship, especially when we're talking about Black people, right, what does it take? You really can't have either one without the other. Marsha P. Johnson was and is a woman impossible to forget. Johnson: We just were saying, "No more police brutality," and, oh, "We had enough of police harassment in the Village and other places." FREE study guides and infographics! Like, it's hard to know in the moment. Marsha P. Johnson was born Malcolm Michaels in Elizabeth, N.J., in 1945. Lee: On one hand, I get tired of the trope that the Black community is somehow more homophobic or more transphobic. But in this moment, in the fight for trans equality, is it more important to grow allies in the Black community or allies with other women? And we were all out there. Overwhelmingly, Black people are around other Black people, right? In front of a crowd at that rally for Black trans lives, she had this to say. Willis: I think that we need all the allies. This preview shows page 1 - 2 out of 2 pages. So there was infrastructure being built. For Black trans lives especially, is this a time? But how are you finding joy in this moment? It feels like a revolution. So, I mean, there are so many ways in which the argument against trans women being women also erases swaths of cisgender women who don't have those particular experiences. Lee: Are we seeing that? 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